“we’re becoming the men we wanted to marry.”
this quote from gloria steinem, spoken ahead of its time in the 1970s, rings scarily loud and clear for me in kate bolick’s recent article in the atlantic, “all the single ladies“.
as soon as i read her take on “the decline of men”, i emailed it to every single girl i know.
kate’s article went viral and she has spent her time since it was published making the rounds on the talk show circuit, defending, discussing, and debating this topic that seems to come as a surprise to “newspeople”.
it’s not at all surprising to me. she, i, and every other single woman are living this common experience together.
last night, a single friend of mine and her mother, who was visiting from out of town, discussed this current state of affairs.
simply boiled down; the majority of men are holding onto their boyhood as long as possible these days. they have roommates, they play video games, they don’t do their laundry, they avoid adult responsibilities as much as they can. they’ve extended a college-like lifestyle into their thirties, and sometimes their forties.
a rare “real man”: a mature, financially secure, professionally successful, well-rounded dude who comes with a variety of interests, a great group of friends, and clean underwear, is surrounded by hordes of available women to choose from, and therefore is in no rush to choose just one.
frankly, why should he?
he is an endangered species. the world is his oyster.
when my father married my mother in their early twenties, there wasn’t any discussion that he would be the provider for their family. that’s what men did: they went to war, they chose a wife, bought a home, made a family, and took a job that paid the bills.
back to current times. i went out to dinner last week with a man from ok cupid who asked me out. i enjoy being asked out for dinner as opposed to drinks. it leaves me with an impression that he’s not afraid to commit to two whole hours up front – in today’s climate, kind of a big deal.
the dinner was fine. he looked like his pictures, which is a good start. there weren’t fireworks, but we had a pleasant enough conversation and he didn’t pull any of the freaky shit that i’ve experienced before (crying at the table, “remembering” to tell me he has three kids, etc).
then the bill came.
look. i’m a career woman. i’ve had a job since i was sixteen years old. my salary was three times the size of my ex-husband’s. i have always been the breadwinner.
i don’t need anyone to buy me dinner.
but this is representative of a much larger, big-picture scenario.
and there is a principle involved.
one, he was the one who asked me out.
two, i believe in, and wholeheartedly want to participate in, a courtship where traditional gender roles are adhered to. i want someone to bring me flowers, hold the door open for me, order us a great bottle of wine, and pick up the check. i’ve never had a relationship like that. i want to give it a shot this time. i’m tired of being the alpha. i want a man to be a man and i want to be treated like a woman.
i always offer my credit card and let him decide how to play it. if he wants to split the check, so be it.
but i want him to say, “put your card away, i wouldn’t dream of it. my treat”.
this dude took my card, put it in the check folder, and handed it to the waitress.
i sat, quite stunned that he had given only my card for the meal, but continued to carry on a conversation about the homemade marshmallows in our hot chocolate.
when the waitress returned with my card, as i signed for the tip on the $85 meal, he said, “here,” and handed me a twenty-dollar bill.
i asked my mom the next day if she would have ever found herself in a position to pay for her own dinner on a date. she laughed and said that notion simply did not exist in her dating years.
i asked my friend’s mom last night what she would suggest i do in that situation. she said that i should never offer my credit card, that i should simply say when the check arrives, “thank you for inviting me to dinner, that was lovely.”
i have all kinds of hang ups with that.
i don’t want to be viewed as a gold digger, because i am quite literally the opposite. i stand on my own two feet.
but if i know that i’m not, shouldn’t i be confident enough to hold my ground during the check presentation?
my friend’s mom said that in her day, after a man took you out and paid for a few meals, if you liked him, the proper next step was to invite him over and cook him dinner. i love the quaintness of that picture.
i’m concerned about what the future holds for females in the generations after me.
hell, i’m concerned about what the future holds for me.
kate’s article suggests a trend towards all-female communities, where women rely on other women to help raise their children, collect their mail when they’re out of town, make conversation with each other over tea.
i don’t want men to be obsolete in my life, but i do want them to start acting like men.
i want no part in our society’s emasculation of men, and i have no interest in 35 year old men who act like motherless little boys.
i don’t need to be taken care of, i want to feel taken care of, that’s the difference.
i’m beginning to doubt that men know how to provide that feeling anymore.
October 31st, 2011 at 7:54 am
Maybe it’s different for me since I’m a Southern man but I’ve never asked a woman to, nor allowed a woman to pay for our meal. If I go to dinner with my female friends I pay. I’d think any man that let a date pay for any portion of the date should then be avoided like the plague. If that guy can’t or won’t spring for the date what good could he possibly be? My opinion is don’t offer to pay. Cook for him down the road, sure, but why pay?
October 31st, 2011 at 9:26 am
Great piece Karyn… Standing ovation!
October 31st, 2011 at 1:27 pm
your friends mom is right – don’t offer your credit card – don’t say you want a man who does xz & z then turn around and offer up xy & z in the hopes that he’ll stop you and do it himself – that’s manipulation and you’re dreaming up the outcome expecting someone else to fulfill it – we all do it – i do it – it’s easy to recognize when someone else does it and offer up advice – harder to see when we ourselves do it – stop doing it!! if you want men to act out their roles let them and if they don’t step up move on – don’t step in and expect them to gently and sweetly push you to the side
in regards to the other part -it’s true – most men are living in a state of arrested development – not sure if they all had shitty families – doubtful – what made them afraid – did our assertion into the world scare them into a shell – do they need to have some kind of male right of passage that is being skipped? did we over communicate “we don’t need you” and fail to communicate “but we want you” or do they not care because they need to be needed and wanted?
my head hurts now, I need to go lie down
October 31st, 2011 at 4:05 pm
I wish you shared your OkCupid profile.
October 31st, 2011 at 4:32 pm
oh. well. there’s something i haven’t shared on my blog before. but i share everything else, so: redheadnycgirl.
October 31st, 2011 at 4:08 pm
This is a superb piece – thanks for writing it.
Here’s the thing: One is a mensch or one is not. Simple.
Civility in its best form is a broad thing. And, yeah, it extends to whomever did the dinner inviting picking up the bill because, well, that’s what a mensch does.
October 31st, 2011 at 8:18 pm
Ugh. just ugh. JUST….UGH. Where is this child’s mother?
November 1st, 2011 at 3:56 pm
Karyn,
This is great! You are really giving a voice to all the extraordinary ladies out there, that are getting shafted in the dating world. Im sharing this with all my girls.
@davidmoreno, you would be extremely lucky to go out on a date with karyn, she is exquisite.
November 3rd, 2011 at 12:26 pm
Unbelievable story!
This has been a thought of mine lately as well. Same thing – I am independent, make good money, blah blah blah, but seriously dudes – pay for dinner the first time or two we go out!
I recently went out with a guy who made a point of trading rounds on our first date. I thought it odd but he also brought me a little present, knowing I like wine (a wine topper from a recent trip). On the second date, we went out for dinner and he accepted my card after he put in cash. (Again, I offered because I don’t want to seem like the gold digger either but expected him to refuse it). After realizing he paid a whopping $10 more than me he said, “You can buy me a drink at the next bar.” I was stunned.
I wasn’t interested in him so after he asked me out again, via email, and I kindly declined (“You are a nice guy, but…”) he wrote me back a terse email insinuating I didn’t know what I want (not him!). Long story short, I couldn’t help myself and I wrote back a little “tip”: if you like a girl buy her dinner! I told him the traditional gender roles might not seem fair, but after us girls get our outfits together, do the hair, the nails, etc. it’s all a wash in the end. (Seriously, do most guys do more than take a quick look in the mirror before walking out the door to meet us?)
Ironically, I consider myself a feminist but I want a man to be a MAN. At least pony up for the first few dates before taking my credit card.
Oh, I just love your blog Karin! You speak for so many of us girls in this city.
November 3rd, 2011 at 4:03 pm
First of all, I’ll apologize for the rambling nature of this as I want to get this out before my next conference call at the office.
I’m certainly going to be in the minority reading these comments, but what I’m struggling with is this idea or expectation of “playing your gender” role. We’ve been in an epic period of changing gender roles and as a man who was raised almost entirely by women, I find it refreshing. While economic equality has not been achieved, women are increasingly taking positions of corporate power, higher graduation rates, etc. Related to this, the role of men will change too.
To be clear, I am likely to pick up the tab. Possibly too much. This is less about being gentlemanly and more to do with having grown up poor and taking pride in myself for having done well. This makes me feel like I lose my credibility in arguing a counter-point here. I value experience over things and a dinner and a good conversation is just that.
To play devil’s advocate though, this is tough city for dating. Both men and women seem to always be looking for that thing that may be a little better. A little hotter, a little younger, a little more successful, a little taller!
I found myself doing this on OKCupid (like many of you!). I found myself going out a lot and hoping that through sheer numbers, I was going to find that amazing, feel it immediately, totally overblown kind of connection. I realize my dates were doing this too.
Maybe it’s more about online dating, but these encounters felt like a preliminary interview for a date vs. a date itself. I spent a lot of money. A lot of money. For the most part, they were…good. I did have a few times we’re I didn’t even get a, “thank you, I don’t think we have the right chemistry but it was nice meeting you.”
There is an excellent book called the Paradox of Choice. It’s more about consumer behavior and being overwhelmed by choice, but I feel it’s relevant in the NYC dating ‘market.’ http://www.amazon.com/Paradox-Choice-Why-More-Less/dp/0060005688
I loved getting your perspective on what you’re looking for and what it’s like for many women in NYC. It also got me to read the Atlantic article you referenced and really enjoyed it. I think I may reread it tonight.
My issue is really with the term, “real man.” I’m not sure there is a real man. I’m not sure there is a real woman. We all have our ideals and it really means we’re looking for a specific type of man or woman based on our own attractions and desires. I just think it’s more complicated.
And yes, your date sounded like a doofus.
November 4th, 2011 at 3:30 pm
Really superb writing on this piece but I’m quite confused. Why do you spend so much time saying that you’re perfectly capable of taking care of yourself and being self-sufficient, but you still actually WANT to subscribe to typical gender stereotypes? Like wanting the guy to “bring me flowers, hold the door open for me” etc.
It’s the 21st century, I don’t believe girls should fawn over simple things like that. I’m not saying that romance is dead, indeed it’s very nice when guys do that, but I’m saying that we should not be EXPECTING them to do that, just because they are the guy and therefore must court us- that is very old-fashioned and narrow-minded thinking.
November 4th, 2011 at 11:47 pm
you say, “I don’t believe girls should fawn over simple things like that.” if you don’t want to fawn over things like that, then don’t, but why tell me what you believe is right for me, or all girls? that’s the beauty of the world, i can look for what i want, and you can look for what you want – they don’t have to be the same thing. i haven’t ever experienced a man who’s like that before. that’s what i’d like at this stage in my life. call me “old-fashioned and narrow-minded” if you’d like. i’m okay with being who i am and wanting what i want.
November 5th, 2011 at 5:27 am
That’s all true yes, you’re perfectly free to want what you want and expect what you want to expect from guys. I guess I just thought most girls nowadays would/should be more feminist in thinking, and reject these gender stereotypes and expected gender roles. But ok, in the end, it IS up to you to want whatever you want in a guy so I get it. To each his (or her) own, then.
November 6th, 2011 at 12:57 am
One more thought from a man-
There never were any ‘real men’. All of it was an illusion.
Boys were forced to grow up because they were told that the way to be a ‘man’ was to become a murderer- to kill other boys. To kill women. To rape women.
To kill children.
That was being a ‘real man’.
The results were awful. Horrible drinking and drug problems. Un-ending nightmares. Suicide.
The escape was the ‘simple life’ of marriage and children. The unending responsibility of family, all on their shoulders.
The burden of the financial responsibility of others and the nightmares of their service lead many to drink more, to beat their wives and children when they felt inadequate to meet the demands that they be ‘real men’.
When they felt overwhelmed, they cheated on their wives- simple escapes from overwhelming burdens.
This generation of men is one of few where the majority are not murderers. They have not committed atrocities and violence.
Enjoy that innocence that these men offer. They want to have fun and show you a good time. They want to love you and please you.
Don’t be afraid to insist on splitting a bill – in fact, who ever asked for the date should pay- but don’t deride men today because they aren’t responding to outdated ideals of masculinity.
The world is a better place because of the change in the role of men, and not worse.
November 6th, 2011 at 12:20 pm
I appreciate your comment. My experience has been much different than this. You state your opinion as if it is fact, applying to all men rather than some men. I, for one, being my father’s daughter, and knowing many of his lovely friends the same age, draw my inspiration of “real men” from them. And as for the boys of today wanting to “love you and please you”, well, that’s not been my experience either. Here’s hoping it will be in the future.
November 15th, 2011 at 3:29 pm
Great post. Very insightful and provides a great window into the thinking behind the other side of the dating “market.” I realize I’m a little late to the discussion but I had a few views on the subject I wanted to share.
First, I echo Darrell’s comment regarding your dinner experience. As southern man myself I cannot imagine inviting a girl to dinner and sticking her with the bill. The guy sounds like a loser. However, your friend’s mom in my opinion is correct in her recommendation about even offering to pay. I never view a girl as a gold-digger just because she doesn’t offer to pay for dinner on a first date. The real test is if she thanks me or not for it. If she does, she communicates that she appreciates my gesture and is likely just following the traditional gender roles as I am. If not, then I need to be careful.
In thinking about your frustrations with men, and after reading Kate Bolick’s article in the Atlantic, I would like to play devil’s advocate myself and pose a serious question:
With the advancement of women over the past 50 years, the status of men as the “alpha” in society has significantly eroded. As the Bolick’s article discussed, men are way behind in college degrees earned and young professional women now actually earn more than young professional men. However, much of our social code and gender roles have been based on women being thought of as lesser citizens (see this nytimes article http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/02/us/southern-manners-on-decline-some-say.html for one example). Now that they have equaled the playing field (or overtaken men), can one reasonably expect the same dating/relationship model of our parents or grandparents (man initiates dates, pays, etc) to yield the same results for us?
My thought is that both sides will have to change some behaviors and expectations. Men will have to grow up and accept that rising to the top professionally in this country will be more challenging than for our fathers and grandfathers who didn’t have to compete with so many qualified, driven women fighting for jobs. We will have to work harder. However, we can’t all win that fight, so those who lose out on the highest paying jobs will have to rise to meet women’s expectations in ways outside of just financial success in order to be acceptable partners. On the other hand, it seems like women will have to realize that there isn’t always going to be a richer, more financially stable man to take care of or dote on you. The beauty of earning your status as an “alpha” in society means increased control of your own life and destiny. However, it is impossible to be the “alpha” and be cared for in the old manner of relationships; an expectation (and in my opinion, the definition) of being the “alpha” means you take care of others.
It is not going to be comfortable for either gender to make this transition. While the most successful men undoubtedly will gain social power and standing, the majority of men actually will feel emasculated by not being able to provide women with what our fathers provided our mothers. We as a group will have to adapt to this new reality. Women will have to understand that earning your status as an alpha carries cost. It may be comforting and cozy to want the traditional male partner that your mother or grandmother had, but the reality is that that gender role is becoming obsolete. How this turns out for all of us as individuals, that I have no idea
November 15th, 2011 at 8:31 pm
thanks for such a thoughtful comment, tim. i appreciate your words, they give me hope.